Theme Hour Discussion About The Republic

From FiranMUX

This Theme Hour was held 15 January 2007. Amber hosted the discussion. Other staff participating in this discussion include Steph, Adam, Jeanne, Catherine, and Jon.

[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Hello, and welcome to my first Theme Hour. For those of you who don't know me -- whether you're new or try to avoid wizzen -- my name is Amber (surprise!). I am a Senior Wizard in charge of Thematic Direction and IC Player Management, which are two overlapping area. Generally, Theme is thematic background and overarching plot, while ICPM is more day-to-day plots. This also means I'm Steph's evil minion. :) I've been a player here since December 1999, and a wiz since July 2001."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Theme Hour was something we just came up during discussion during the wiz meeting, so this is an experimental one, just to see how it goes. Firan has such a rich history as a game (and before), theme knowledge can be tricky. As theme senior, I'm stepping up to the plate to try to help that. Tonight I'm going to give some very brief background to the topic (in this case the Republic), and then encourage questions and we can have a good old-fashioned discussion and hopefully learn some stuff."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "So, then, the Republic. First of all, as you may be aware, it's not really a Republic, and it's not exactly a cohensive nation. The current IC year is 39 AU -- the AU stands for 'After Unification' (such as it is). FiranMUX started in the earlyish years of the Republic; the Republic itself was created during the original tabletop."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Before the Shamibelians came, the Firans were a group of quarreling clans with no common cause to unite them. The Clan Council did meet, yearly, on a sacred island (now sunk) by Anarinuell, and the holder of the staff of High Priest kept order, as they do now. Clan Councils were secret and sacred. Festivals were still held in Sarkaran, and wars were suspended for them, but other than that, the clans were very much separate peoples."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "The Republic was formed as an united front against the Shamibelians. The Republic is an union of all the clans, which still, in theory, must vote every few years to renew the constitution. (Whether they have or not recently is an IC matter). The Elianiks are the Republic royal family, which was originally an union between royals of the two biggest clans in the Republic -- the Gold Dragons and the Bears. The Ranivor is the ruler of the Republic, but he doesn't (when we have one) really rule /over/ all the clans. Instead, effectively, he is a mediator between clans. The Republic is in charge of the city of Anarinuell, and establishing a common army to fight against the goats. Outside Anarinuell (and Caldera City), the clan lands are ruled by their individual clan leaders, and the Republic has little, if any sway."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "As a lot of you know, the Republic is not always the most stable of units. The clan leaders often bicker bitterly. There have been wars between clans. The clan council has forced clan leadership changes. The Hydra clan withdrew from the Republic for several years. The last Ranivor was made to abdicate, and right now we have a Viceroy -- a clan council appointed regent for the princes. However, it has endured, and the Firans still, so far, withstand the Shamibelians."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "That's your general introduction. Questions?"
[Public] Behold the Scoundrel Prince! Torianos says, "None so far."
[Public] Dalinuel says, "Conferation is a better description that Republic?"
[Public] Dalinuel says, "Confederation"
[Public] Jericho says, "I got a question, for the staff mostly, a opinion question."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "That might be a good way of thinking of it, yes. It exists mostly as long as the individual clan leaders agree to it existing. It can survive the departure of one member, but not of many more."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Yes, Jericho?"
[Public] Adan says, "..Why were the Elainiks chosen as the Royal family? Why do we have a Royal family that's hereditary? (This sort of feeds into the broader question). Why was a royal family chosen in the first place, as opposed to the Viceroy as it is now?"
[Public] Do Not Upset Mr. Bigglesworth Ronti says, "I like to say this about the world of firan: 'Think of the Greek city states jammed really close together, the Persians drop by more often with air strikes.'"
[Public] Jericho says, "Does the staff think that the current state of affairs in the Republic isn't as unified as it should be. Like do the clans bicker to much for a society that should be united against a common enemy for 30 some years?"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "It's an IC matter, Jericho. We need conflict of some sort -- it drives plotlines. And some clans are more isolated from the war than others. I don't have an opinion on it as to whether it's good or bad -- it's what the clan leaders make it."
[Public] Audentus says, "The Republic seems much more politicaly active than simply running the city, paying for an army, and mediating disputes."
[Public] XX Adam says, "Civil wars, a recent coup attempt, clans withdrawing from the Republic, royals heading off to create their own clans... that doesn't paint a picture of a unified front against the Shamibelians to me."
[Public] Minnie Driver as Saria says, "Elianos' lineage... the first Ranivor, that's why the Elianiks are the chosen royal family, right?"
[Public] Behold the Scoundrel Prince! Torianos nods to Audentus. "Again, though. I think that is because the Republic is allowed to do so."
[Public] Jericho says, "Mind if I page you Adam, if you are free?"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "As for Adan's question, it's largely because of Elianos. Elianos Firgalik, former clan leader of the Chimera clan, the first Ranivor of the Republic. There's lots of news files on him. :) He was one of the Seven Heroes, and a great hero -- who commanded the sort of respect that /could/ hold the clans together. So he was chosen for the first Ranivor, and his family made the royal family of the Republic."
[Public] Rinzik says, "I have a question! Why don't we have a Ranivor yet? How is it chosen? With so many princes of age and married and having kids, why is there still a regent in the Viceroy? Is that just an IC thing?"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "As for the Republic seeming a greater political entity...that's larger because we play in Anarinuell, which is directly administered by the Republic. If you were in a clan city, you'd likely hardly notice you were in a Republic."
[Public] Behold the Scoundrel Prince! Torianos says, "A ranivor hasn't been chosen because he is elected by the council, and they haven't called for a vote yet."
[Public] Once was lost, now was Kerasha says, "How many clan cities do we have, and how updated are they kept with information/going-ons?"
[Public] Jassi says, "So it's like, we live in the Capital, like D.C., which is why we're more in tune to politics?"
[Public] Riven says, "So it's a new thing that people are allowed to listen in on some clan councils at all?"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Also, individual characters -- and NPCs -- get preoccupied with their own biases and agendas. Unless the Shamibelians are directly attacking, they can forget the larger picture and pursue individual goals, which may be destructive to the united front."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Torianos is right. The Clan Council will choose the next Ranivor. They haven't yet."
[Public] Malatan says, "So it is an IC thing."
[Public] Behold the Scoundrel Prince! Torianos says, "Yes."
[Public] Orfi says, "Is it possible that we may never have another Ranivor. Is the line of sucession if something were to happen to Taleo, that it would automatically fall to the deputy viceroy, or would that lead to massive civil war?"
[Public] XX Adam says, "Elianos and Sabine were the de facto leaders of the Firan forces against the Shamibelians. It was natural to make Elianos the Ranivor, and the idea of 'royalty' sorta sprung from that."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "In a matter of speaking, Jassi. At least in tune to inter-clan politics."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "A new Viceroy would be appointed by the Clan Council, Orfi. Taleo isn't the only Viceroy we've had, just the longest serving."
[Public] Minnie Driver as Saria says, "AHA! Everybody thinks it is hard to believe when I meantion that Saria didn't notice that there was a republic before she was made to move to Anarinuell... *coughs* anyhow... hmm."
[Public] Michael Wincott as Nysem says, "will someone clean this up and post it on the invision board?"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Well, Saria was born in Anarinuell, but I assume you're talking about her spending much of her childhood in Arinzi, when the Hydras had pulled out of the Republic?"
[Public] Once was lost, now was Kerasha is going to clean it for private log files, Nysem. I'll post it if no one else does.
[Public] Orfi is planning on that, Nysem.
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber will hold others, too, on different topics. :)
[Public] Steph says, "You might infer, as a matter of thematic political insight, that the Clan Council seems reluctant to choose a Ranivor, and that itself might be a statement about the Princes, or about the Clan Council, or about the Republic as the case may be."
[Public] Minnie Driver as Saria noddles. She was born here and lived there until she was 10, I think? It was when the city was rp-closed and Rodellos told eveybody to move here...
[Public] Riven says, "How differently should kids who've never known the Republic not to be in existence view things from older chars?"
[Public] Minnie Driver as Saria says, "what about the... ahm hmm. I can't remember what it was called. That that they did after the heroes left, with hmm three princes as rulers, I think?"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "The Triumvirate."
[Public] Orfi wonders if this is off topic. "The Triumveriate... oops, I'll stay quiet
[Public] Minnie Driver as Saria says, "That! I was always bad with names..."
[Public] Kelarik was skimming news files at some point recently and stumbled across a tidbit about a sacred island off the coast where the Clan Council meetings were supposedly held. However, Clan Council meetings are held in Anarinuell. I was wondering two things in regards to this: 1) Were they moved here just for players' sanity's sake, and 2) Does the fact that there isn't an active Ranivor have anything to play in the use of the Unity Building instead of that island? (I cannot recall the filename off the top of my head - it was one of those random 'oh, interesting' tidbits I stumbled across while looking for something else.) It's not an essential question, but it's something I've always been curious about.
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "When the Heroes left -- the Heroes including Ranivor Elianos -- Elianos left his twin sons, Solgarik and Vahlgellan, and his grandson, Sadin, the rulership of the Republic jointly. It didn't work so well."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "It sunk, Kelarik."
[Public] Kelarik says, "Ah. That'd be a good reason."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "I don't think Zin likes our clan council /that/ much. :)"
[Public] Do Not Upset Mr. Bigglesworth Ronti says, "Went over like a Ticanee navy... oh wait....."
[Public] Audentus says, "I'm surprised the Republic officials don't stress the war against the Shamibelians more than they do if that is such a major part of their role in society. Seems as though Guards get more attention."
[Public] Behold the Scoundrel Prince! Torianos nods. "The triumvirate failed and a Viceroy was appointed instead of a new ranivor. Until such a time as a proper person could fill the role and do the job right."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "What happened was Vahlgellan ended up doing all work, so he was crowned Ranivor."
[Public] Behold the Scoundrel Prince! Torianos corrects. "Nobody was succesful as Ranivor, so the viceroy was appointed. If I remember correctly."
[Public] Minnie Driver as Saria says, "what did he do to be... shoo'd off?"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Then he was forced to step down -- which is actually when I was on vacation, so I'll let Steph or Adam or Jeanne explain that in more detail if someone wants to hear. Then a Viceroy was appointed to rule for the princes. Nydiam, Taleo, Atreides and Sadin have all been Viceroys."
[Public] Umaish says, "well Vahlgellan was pretty successeful till around the time of the great dream...."
[Public] Minnie Driver as Saria says, "Sadin didn't seem bad either until... he seemed to idle out..."
[Public] Yasha says, "Sadin was largely inactive yeah."
[Public] Malatan says, "Idlers. :("
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "One important thing to remember is that Taleo isn't king. He's a clan council-appointed official. He's only been Viceroy for so long because he's good at it."
[Public] Jassi says, "What difference is there between a Ranivor and a Viceroy?"
[Public] Behold the Scoundrel Prince! Torianos says, "If he screws something up badly, the council can just vote him out and replace him."
[Public] Jassi says, "In practical terms, I mean"
[Public] Yasha says, "the Viceroy is a regent"
[Public] Jassi says, "I don't know what that means...a regent."
[Public] Jericho says, "Regent.. a Regent is a viceroy."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "A regent is someone who rules for an heir who is underage or otherwise unable to rule for themselves."
[Public] Yasha says, "the Ranivor is the true leader. Like Taleo's kids won't be Viceroy if he dies. He's keeping the medallion till a ranivor is picked."
[Public] XX Adam says, "On some level, a Ranivor has the /right/ to rule. A Viceroy is purely chosen to hold a position for a short time, at the bidding of the people in charge."
[Public] Jericho says, "Does the Republic have like.. a Republic navy?"
[Public] Yasha says, "when a Ranivor is choosen then said Ranivors decendants should (in theory) inherit it"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "In theory. The Clan Council likes to meddle."
[Public] Adan says, "Yes, Jericho. But it's off-camera, pretty much. :)"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "The Republic does have a navy, but it's--thanks, Adan."
[Public] Riven says, "How comfortable should commoners feel with people in other clans? Especially commoner kids, who've grown up knowing the Republic?"
[Public] Adan says, "We don't have much naval ability. It keeps to the coast, and it's main function so far is to haul troops to Ellish on the trireme."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "If you're Anarinuell-raised, you might be fairly comfortable with other clans, depending on the clan. If you're fresh from a clan city, you're likely to be hesitant with 'foreigners.'"
[Public] Steph says, "Vahlgellan was forced out of his position by the Alliance War, in which he sat by and did nothing as the Gold Dragon Clan mowed down the Bear Clan for killing one of their nobles. When it was clear that the Ranivor was going to sit all this out, and simply allow it all to happen, The Gold Dragon Clan's allies swiftly joined them, and they took over the palace district and claimed the reigns of power."
[Public] XX Adam says, "Anarinuell is land-locked. It just happens to be at the junction of three large rivers so there are river boats."
[Public] Adan says, "And as bad as our navy is, the Shamibelians are worse, so."
[Public] Jericho says, "Hm, are Republic war vessels able to travel up river?"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Thanks, Steph."
[Public] Jericho says, "If we even have anything that could be called.. a war vessel."
[Public] Marthin says, "But, if I get the origins of Elianos as Ranivor right; Ranivor was essentially a spontaneous democratic decision of the masses to title their hero.... How did this whole heredity thing get in there, and why suddenly do the masses all agree to allow people to appoint a new ranivor? Or, put another way.. how did Elianos actually get the title Ranivor... was it a Clan Council action on behalf of all of the masses?"
[Public] Steph says, "In the aftermath of the Alliance War, Lords Sabinus and Tergus were both executed, along with Clan Leader Akinita, and her medallion was given to Inaya. This last bit is largely considered the greatest stain/tragedy of that time."
[Public] Adan says, "We have biremes and triremes, Jericho."
[Public] XX Adam says, "Let's hold the Navy questions for another time. =)"
[Public] XX Adam says, "Or take it to pages with Adan."
[Public] Jericho says, "Heh, yeah sorry sorry."
[Public] Yasha sniffles and nods
[Public] Audentus says, "Would you say that the population is fairly freaked out then? The war going poorly and no Elianik comming forward as a Uniter/General. Should we be feeling like these are dark days for Firan civilization? Theme-wise."
[Public] Steph says, "Marthin, you're incorrect. The Ranivor was actually chosen by the Clan Council when they decided that in order to fight the Shamibelians after the Exodus, they needed a strong central power. Elianos was chosen, and in so doing, he handed over his medallion to his right-hand-man Riss. However, Riss did not want to lead anybody. He liked being #2. So it was given to his daughter, and the royal family of the Chimera Clan became the Rissiks. Elianos' family became royal."
[Public] Yasha says, "until then the Rissiks were commoners."
[Public] Marthin says, "Ok Steph, so then the Ranivorship is not hereditary but rather an appointment by the Clan Council?"
[Public] Steph says, "Ironically, Audentus, you probably think (not you personally, but the commoners) that things are calmer than they have been in about 10 years. The Alliance War period, and the Air Raids preceeding it were very very dark and dangerous times. A Ranivor was _deposed_. The Constitution was essentially shredded. It's only been this past week that every clan has a clan leader again."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber wouldn't say the war is going any more poorly than it has for the last two decades. Things are rather more stable now.
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "There was a time when three-quarters of the clans were ruled by Regents and Proxies."
[Public] XX Adam says, "The Ranivor position was accounted for in the Constitution they drafted."
[Public] Minnie Driver as Saria thinks that PC-wise most feel the same... who the next Ranivor will be and what he will do is a bit scary ;)
[Public] Jericho says, "Well considering the last war season was a debacle, for the Firan army, could you really say the war is stable?"
[Public] Steph says, "Marthin, the Clan Council decided as a matter of constitutional law that the position was hereditary when they formed the Republic and the Elianiks became royal. Now that the constitution is less of a force in the government, and more of a 'suggested guideline' having expired and not been technically renewed, it's a lot more fluid."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "The Clan Council does ICly tend to, er, play it by ear."
[Public] Steph would answer that, Jericho, by saying that the Shamibelians haven't taken over any new cities... and the Shamibelians having done that is still within the living memories of some people on the grid... so it's likely not quite as bad as it seems to you, put in historical context. Which is not to say it's good.
[Public] Suphi finds the Clan Council Risk adverse .. and as a result they sit on their haunches until the right path is shown to them.
[Public] Marthin says, "Ok, thanks that clears the muddy water a bit ;) Second question - I've noticed in various characters and news files that there is a lot of inter-clan movement, particularly at the noble level, but also at the commoner class level as well... Is this primordially restricted to basically Anarinuell, if, in essence, the clans barely talk to each other outside of the Capitol?"
[Public] Jericho says, "Yeah but still, two times the entire city has had to been called up to save the actually soldiers. That has to sting in the minds of the populace, right?"
[Public] Jericho says, "Actual*"
[Public] Marthin says, "By movement, I mean, people are Griffon one day, Cockatrice the next, etc..."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "I think perhaps one of the hard things to grasp is that a lot of the legal and political structures in Firan are less dealt with by any written structure of law than by what serves the larger picture."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "There's not a lot of commoners moving between clans outside Anarinuell, unless they meet each other at the festival or somesuch. There's always been a certain degree of noble intermarriage -- that's politicking."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "You'll still find some of the clans/families discouraging marrying outside the clan."
[Public] Jericho says, "Which, would effect the populace, I imagen."
[Public] Malatan suspects we'd need a whole additional theme night just to talk about marriage.
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber will put it on her list. :)
[Public] Orfi ask this question but she knows the answer for herself. "Which takes presidence... Republic or clan law?
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Depends on where you are, Orfi."
[Public] Steph grins at Orfi. During Hurricaine Katrina, which took precedence? State or national law?
[Public] Audentus laughs and had the same question typed out, Orfi. :)
[Public] Celeste mumbles at Steph.
[Public] Orfi says, "No one ;)"
[Public] Audentus says, "Well the national law didn't show up."
[Public] Suphi says, "State, because Bush didn't do anything."
[Public] Yasha says, "Orfi it depends who's breathing down your throat too. I know of guards where their CL's told them one thing and the Viceroy's said another and it's like ... what do you do?"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "The Republic has no power on clan soil -- unless the clan gives them that power."
[Public] Steph says, "Just as we're still fighting nationalism battles in RL in our very old (comparatively) Republic... the Firans are still struggling with those questions. At present, Republic law is pretty strong, but the Clan Council is also so jealous of their own powers that they oftentimes draw the line."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "In theory. Sometimes the Republic takes that power."
[Public] Marthin says, "Third question - What is the general popular support for the Republic - outside of Anarinuell. I mean, capitals are often looked at as a place with all the lame duck politicians... does the rest of the greater populace generally support the Clan Council, or is it seen as unsupported by many?"
[Public] Steph nods to Amber. "Such as the instance when the Republic took over the city of Scirlut."
[Public] Riyad says, "So, in Anarinuell, the Republic only has jurisdiction over the Palace District? And the Individual Clans have jurisdiction over their individual areas?"
[Public] Audentus has noticed they are like the mob like that. "Give them a foot in the door and they take the door, and everything inside." ;)
[Public] Catherine nods. Federalism is, as always, a thorny issue. Especially since I mean.. the question of whether clan members self-identify as Firans or as members of their clan. Though mostly the latter, is my impression..
[Public] Catherine says, "Push come to shove. Though has not been paying enough .. attention, so might have covered, nod."
[Public] Marthin nods to Catherine.. that's what I'm getting at... how Anarinuell-centric are we generally?
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "The Republic only rules the PD directly, although a couple of clans (the Bear and Cockatrice, I think) have given the First Division some criminal pursuit powers in their districts."
[Public] Steph says, "Marthin, great question. For those clan leaders who have few or no cities outside of Anarinuell, their power in the city is a good gauge of how popular they are. For others, like Jalil, he may be considered powerful in the capital, but if you watch social adjustments, his clan is pretty pissed at him at the moment. It's something to keep an eye on in the social adjustments b/c they aren't just for Anarinuell."
[Public] Marthin says, "Steph - thanks... so in essence, the Social Points really have to be considered in context... a comparative rating just on the numbers isn't really fair... Unless you count population/city size as real power... which I suppose you might? Otherwise... the table at the Clan Council meetings would be severely unbalanced, no?"
[Public] Orfi says, "Ok, to build on my question, if a crime is committed in a clan district, is it the clan guard or republic guard to call? Also who prosecutes in that situation. And for those in the military, if the clan is at odds with the republic (as if that ever happens) what happens to those in the republic military?"
[Public] Jericho says, "Do the Ticanee have any presense out side Anarinuell?"
[Public] Jericho says, "City wise."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "In general, the bigger the clan, the more powerful the leader. That's a real generalization as it also depends on the leader, how stable their throne is, and what alliances they have."
[Public] Audentus says, "That's a good point. I often wonder to myself why the Ticanee have so much political power despite being such a small Clan. ;) Course they've had a fine breeding program!"
[Public] Yasha says, "Yeah they have 1 city Jericho"
[Public] Zalman says, "there's Vahloria"
[Public] Jericho says, "Ahhh, ok."
[Public] Audentus says, "Not much of a city."
[Public] Yasha says, "Valhoria. I think it's got a population of about 20,000?"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "In the clan district, you call the clan guards, Orfi. Who may or may not decide to hand it over to the Republic guard."
[Public] Jericho says, "20,000? Thats a lot, id think..."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "And a clan has the right to withdraw their soldiers from the Republic military, but it tends to really piss off the Republic and other clans. :)"
[Public] XX Adam says, "2,000 maybe."
[Public] Jericho says, "Heh 2000? Thats no city ;P"
[Public] Nodin says, "not compared to 2 million GDs ;)"
[Public] Yasha says, "aren't al the tics who aren't in Ana there?"
[Public] XX Adam says, "It is by Firan standards."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "There are a lot of Ticanee in Caldera City, too."
[Public] Jericho says, "Hmmm."
[Public] Yasha nods true I forgot about that
[Public] STRANGE Ospreya says, "Don't the Ticanee mostly still tribe-roam?"
[Public] Yasha says, "Still the entire Ticanee clan would fit in some of the GD cities."
[Public] Once was lost, now was Kerasha says, "Don't the Ticanee still have roamin- Darnit, Ospreya."
[Public] Audentus says, "63,000 Ticanee. Nearly 3 million Gold Dragons. According to my records."
[Public] Yasha says, "Ospreya most of those roaming tribes are dead or lost"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "The Ticanee's tribal structures and their lands were lost in the Great War."
[Public] Zalman says, "yeah... aren't most of the clan cities capable of only holding maybe 10,000 at most? most 1,000 or less?"
[Public] Yasha says, "the bobcats were found and there were all of like 15 of them left"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "They only got some land -- the area around Vahloria -- in the history of the game."
[Public] Marthin says, "Is Clan power essentially related to military strength? By this I mean, how much do Firans (or their makeup clans) really regard military strength as the barometer of power? (The leader being the barometer of ability/willigness to use it)?"
[Public] Minnie Driver as Saria says, "It's a small clan but with a lot of active PCs... it will show next Olympics, it isn't' the first time the big clans have troubles on filling in teams."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "That's a PC balance issue, Saria. That's not really related."
[Public] Audentus says, "Lots of that is ooc issues too. Players see that some clans are going nowhere and others are humming like... well, the Ticanee. ;)"
[Public] Jericho says, "10,000 at most? Didn't Scirlut or what not have 25,000?"
[Public] XX Adam says, "Again, we're quibbling over minutiae. Let's keep the discussion to politics and theme."
[Public] Jericho nodnods, "Sorry."
[Public] Riyad snugs all but must go for the night. Great thing, Amber. I really appreciate it! :) Can't wait for the next installment!
[Public] XX Adam says, "Clan power is a combination of military strength, economic trading power, and political sway."
[Public] Marthin says, "Thanks Adam. Always forget the economy. ;)"
[Public] Orfi wonders if she can suggest ideas for future discussions.
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Our economic system has been offline, but we're working on getting it back up."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Yes, Orfi. @mail me."
[Public] Steph says, "Marthin, I would say that the power of a clan leader in the whole of the Firan world is not reflected by social points. You have to take into account the size of their military, their stability, the loyalty they have from the people, any rivals that they have for their throne, as well as the strategic alliances they have made or failed to make. The Bear Clan was pretty damned powerful when they were sandbagged by the Dragons--but they were in a bad political spot at the time (in part caused by cheese riots, but I don't want to get into that). You can look at @clan stats and that gives you some clue too."
[Public] Audentus wonders if Clan Trading will be up and... "Cool. That's answered. I miss the Trading system."
[Public] Behold the Scoundrel Prince! Torianos says, "Might, money and clout. I was about to ask about that Amber, what was it like when it was working?"
[Public] Adan says, "IRON WOOD AXES!"
[Public] Adan ahem.
[Public] Audentus grins.
[Public] Once was lost, now was Kerasha says, "Nice, Adan."
[Public] Marthin nods to Steph. "Is it fair to say loyalty of the people is measured by SP?"
[Public] STRANGE Ospreya says, "I always wanted to see a lack of rose flowers riot. :("
[Public] Kenilla would riot over that! ;)
[Public] Vinia says, "Loves the lack of rose flowers!"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "It gave clans another way to cooperate -- or fight. And it allowed economic pressures as a political concern."
[Public] Steph shakes her head to Marthin. "No. Sometimes other clans can think highly of a leader, even if their own clan does not. This has happened to a number of Firan leaders at their peril."
[Public] Yasha says, "Jalil's situation would be like that right Steph?"
[Public] Yasha says, "he's still on the social list but his clan's mad as heck at him?"
[Public] XX Adam says, "It would not be prudent for us to comment on current affairs at this time. ;)"
[Public] Marthin says, "So if, say, we wanted to have an idea of what we thought of our clan leader "the feel of the street".. we'd have to basically read over SP justifications and combine that with our own PCs awareness, etc?"
[Public] Steph says, "Jalil's situation has been like that, but other times he has been very popular with the Dragons. (Such as the aforementioned time when he sandbagged the Bears. The Dragons _loved_ that.)"
[Public] XX Adam nods to Marthin.
[Public] Steph nods to Marthin. Exactly.
[Public] Yasha says, "Steph used it as an example earlier which is why I used it"
[Public] Yasha nods
[Public] Marthin gets it... in a non-wizzen way. ;)
[Public] Orfi says, "Do clans have their individual currency or just Republic currency?"
[Public] Adan frown thoughtfully. "Are we seeing a current day where the Clan Council is doing a lot less publicly as a Clan Council? It seems that the Clan Council, for example, used to sit as a sort of jury in far more cases. Do that sort of thing, whereas a lot of that has been kicked out. Have we seen Clan Council really flag as a political event?"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Every clan wants and admires different things. That's why it's sometimes hard for the Republic to stand together. Two clans will want different things, and unless a middle road can be found, they'll fight."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "There's a common currency. It keeps us from getting headaches."
[Public] Marthin has always figured that Governments change from time to time. Some are aggressive, others do nothing and claim a lot, and others still just fail.
[Public] Riven says, "Yay common currency, at least. :)"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Actually, the Clan Council now meets more commonly and more publicly than they used to."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber remembers when the Clan Council met once every three months. In private.
[Public] Adan says, "But didn't it meet publicly before that?"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Only when they wanted to."
[Public] Yasha says, "the public meetings are way new."
[Public] Adan says, "Because when Steph shifted back to forced public meetings, I believe she said she was going back to an old tradition."
[Public] Audentus says, "It looks ugly, but they accomplish more than it seems."
[Public] XX Adam says, "Actually, Steph said to either have them private or do them public without all the table-talk. But choose."
[Public] Adan is talking about when the meetings were first forced open.
[Public] Adan says, "Before the most recent."
[Public] Farkarmor says, "Many people don't know that anyone can ask to speak during the Clan Council meeting. They don't have acknowledge your request, but you can make it."
[Public] Marthin can go tell off the Iranian President too... he doesn't have to kill me, but he can. :P
[Public] Adan says, "It went along with the, 'you can't have limited Proxies' scolding."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "There was a time when they were held every three or four months and were open, and then were closed for privacy concerns."
[Public] Suphi feels the open meetings make the CC more vulnerable to public criticism, though as a player I like them as they let me know what is going on ... when so much is hush hush.
[Public] Yasha says, "the CC is always vulnerable to public criticism though aren't they?"
[Public] Orfi thinks 'Freedom of Speech' is purely a modern thing. If you tell off most leaders of old, you were locked away if you were lucky, most likely killed.
[Public] Audentus prefers it as a player too. "And they have thick skin, can take some criticism." :)
[Public] Suphi agrees with Orfi
[Public] Yasha says, "when it was closed meetings we still gossiped about them and what not."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "There are some leaders who will have you executed for raising your voice to them. :)"
[Public] Marthin says, "*clamors for more executions*"
[Public] Suphi says, "yell at Daimia Marthin"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "As well, keep in mind that clan leaders are, to an extent, sacred figures. Clan medallions are sacred objects. The execution of Akinita shattered that myth a little, but they're still seen as more than human in some ways."
[Public] Once was lost, now was Kerasha says, "Leaders potentially like Taria, if we remember some of her more...active days."
[Public] Adan says, "...Who's Akinita?"
[Public] Audentus calls it a night, "Thanks for the discussion, I found it very informative. Especially liked the past experiences, helps me to get a better perspective on what is happening now."
[Public] Riven says, "Have there been delegate meetings recently? Are they publicly announced?"
[Public] Suphi says, "Taria was nuts. I loved it .. made me want to become a Ticanee."
[Public] Marthin thanks the Wizzen for this truly awesome idea, and to Amber for hosting this shindig. Helps clear the air, and attendance by both the High Holy Immortals is appreciated :) I must now sleep, but am happy to be back!
[Public] Once was lost, now was Kerasha says, "'news akinita' Adan."
[Public] Yasha says, "Adan - News Akinita"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Akinita was the former Chimera CL who was stripped of her medallion during the Alliance War and executed by the Clan Council."
[Public] Orfi says, "so clan leaders are not above the law, but are the absolute law in their lands?"
[Public] Marthin suggests the Notion of Nobility, Title and Namesake as a future topic... particularly how it is gained, lost, etc....
[Public] Riven didn't see a delegate speaker at the last CC meeting, and was wondering if their current role is similar to how they are conceived in the news file.
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "The precedent has been established that CLs are accountable to the Clan Council."
[Public] % Jeanne says, "Akinita Rissik and her son Sabinus were executed in the Alliance war a while back, Adan. Before that, the Rissiks were the Chimeran royal family."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "It was not always such."
[Public] Marthin says, "Amber - does that mean that Firan is ruled under Common Law? (You stated "the Precedent")"
[Public] Adan says, "'news constitution' should cover some of that, Marthin."
[Public] Adan says, "As for written law v. tradition."
[Public] XX Adam says, "Akinita was the daughter of Riss (the progenitor of the Rissik line), who was Elianos' right hand man, and a commoner. When Elianos became Ranivor, he handed his medallion to Riss, who gave it to his daughter. Akinita married Garen (both were tabletop characters!) and begat Eliana, Sabinus, and Gavin. The rest is history."
[Public] Steeler Fan, Dar says, "I believe Riven did bring up a good question, anybody to answer it in regards to the delegates."
[Public] Orfi says, "would it be wrong to ask who were the tabletop characters were? Kinda curious. :)"
[Public] Adan says, "The answer is 'no,' re: delegates. They have not met recently."
[Public] XX Adam says, "Lessee if I can remember them all."
[Public] Adan says, "To my knowledge."
[Public] Steeler Fan, Dar says, "How come though, considering they should be."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Because no one's organized them to do so."
[Public] Adan says, "Something to take up with your local delegate, for sure."
[Public] Steeler Fan, Dar says, "So basically, ICly they should be flogged!"
[Public] Riven says, "No speaker either? The commoner in me is terribly disappointed."
[Public] Do Not Upset Mr. Bigglesworth Ronti says, "We aren't a democracy.... yet *he said before the gods struck him down with great vengeance and furious anger*"
[Public] XX Adam says, "Elianos (played by Paul) and Sabine (played by Steph's sister, Jen). Garen (played by Anger), Bannos (by Jeremy), Velani (by Letty), Zarid (by Davey), Throg (by Aaron and others). Those are the main ones. There should be one from each clan there. Torvahl the Ticanee (by Jen's then-fiance Mike) joined later, as did Selene/Ivy (Jeremy's sister), Judano (played by Kaz sometimes and by my brother Jason a couple times). There were other cameos now and then."
[Public] XX Adam says, "Oh! Lokaranis, often played as an NPC by me, sometimes by other people."
[Public] Do Not Upset Mr. Bigglesworth Ronti says, "Kaz? Freaky kind of guy with black hair and a slow drawl?"
[Public] Adan says, "Amber, you mentioned that those in Clan lands don't really know much about the Republic, which, fair. In those lands, is the Republic more a distant thing of reverence, or derided, or just ignorant of?"
[Public] Adan says, "(This might vary clan by clan)."
[Public] XX Adam says, "The tabletop game ended in 1 A.U., more or less, with the re-founding of the city of Anarinuell and the building of the walls. The Firans had driven out the Shamis back to Ellish and had united as a Republic under a new Constitution. The MUX started in 15 A.U. after things had cooked a little bit."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber thinks it's mostly a case that they just don't think about it.
[Public] Yasha says, "wasn't Zarid in there?"
[Public] XX Adam nods to Ronti. You probably know Kaz.
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "He mentioned Zarid."
[Public] Yasha says, "ahhh there he is"
[Public] Riven says, "Was the democracy movement something that rose up in recent years with the Republic, and thus mostly associated only with the Anarinuell?"
[Public] XX Adam says, "Of the original tabletop players, two are dead. Letty died of breast cancer and Davey died of mysterious causes, but probably ODed on heroin."
[Public] Yasha  :(
[Public] Once was lost, now was Kerasha says, "!"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "The democracy movement is actually more evident in certain clans, Riven."
[Public] Adan says, "Eagles. And Hydra, ironically."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Notably the Eagles and Chimera, who are more egalitarian."
[Public] Once was lost, now was Kerasha says, "...Hydra? Hydras seem more monarchy-ish from what impressions I've gotten."
[Public] Adan says, "Hydrans had a little democracy spurt."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Amenik made a good speech."
[Public] Adan says, "About a Council of Warriors."
[Public] Yasha says, "no the Hydrans wanted to lead by council"
[Public] Yasha says, "or at least advise by council"
[Public] Adan says, "For the Eagles, Ishani was the first democratically elected proxy."
[Public] Kenilla says, "What about the Griffons, and their Advisory Council?"
[Public] Adan says, "A speech which had perhaps the opposite of the intended effect, tho, Amber. I think."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Eagles are big on free thinking and egalitarianism and all that stuff."
[Public] Yasha says, "which is kind of ironic cause Zeysani wasn't the most free thinking of leaders."
[Public] % Jeanne says, "And drinking. They're big on drinking."
[Public] Once was lost, now was Kerasha says, "I think the drinking was kind of a given."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber might have a Theme Hour on each clan, in the future.
[Public] Yasha says, "that would be very cool Amber"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "As it is, we've been going an hour and an half. Anyone have any questions on the Republic before we wrap up?"
[Public] Dalinuel says, "That would be useful, yes. And this isn't a mav :)"
[Public] Suphi would love to see the Nahket people attack and conquer one of the clans * with similar themes .. Eagle, Griffon, Trice, Chimera* .. take them over and have PC Nahket's and PC slaves .. (those from that clan) .. and ..if they were powerful enough..they could force the republic to accept them and their ways.. as we do the Tics.
[Public] Minnie Driver as Saria blinks. Slaves? Bad word. Boo. Hrms... and what about the Republic vs Old City... oh and the Lanesh! That name has come up a few times... big closed doors taboo?
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Yes. The Lanesh are a big taboo."
[Public] Adan says, "Perhaps one of the biggest interactions that anyone has with the Republic is the Army and Republic military service. How widespread is Republic Army service and what is the general opinion of the Boys in Green (separate from very recent events)?"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "As for the Old City, the old city itself is the former city of Anarinuell -- it was rebuilt after the Great War, and the old city is the ruins of the original Anarinuell. It's a slum. There are thugs. They don't like guards in their turf. Guards don't like going in there. It's like an inner city ghetto, in a way."
[Public] Suphi nods. Republic vs OldCity .. is like cops and robbers. If you aren't a cop, then you're a victim . . It is a lot of fun, but in the past two years... the clans are meshing .. becoming less distinct, .. and players are treating alts similar from clan to clan .. Tattoos for example.
[Public] Suphi says, "this is not a game issue, more players issue. ... Like .. how many people are actually getting physical beatings? I know when my alt went to beat his wife for the first time, I as a player could not do it.. it was really hard on me. .. She, and others talked me through it. I still failed, but the next time I was able to do it."
[Public] STRANGE Ospreya says, "I think that's more of an OOC liking that was bled ICly, instead of clan-meshing."
[Public] XX Adam says, "Three."
[Public] Suphi says, "what's that?"
[Public] Minnie Driver as Saria knows little about it but... republic raids on the OC have become almost frequent heard. They are like allowed to exist there, as if.... don't mess with us, don't do something too big and we will let you misfits and outcasts exist there?
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber thinks we have the percentages of how much military each clan pledges to Republic in the news files somewhere -- I don't know off the top of my head. Like 20%% of their militaries, I think? Outside of Anarinuell, you don't enlist in the Republic military directly -- you enlist in your clan military, and then the clan military is sent to the front. In general, being a soldier is a respected profession.
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber thinks in general the Old City is a whole other topic of its own.
[Public] Adan says, "So, Amber, it'd be more like the Civil War way of raising an Army? The Cockatrice Cawing 32nd's are raised and sent to the Front, rather than these mish-mash units we have in the capital?"
[Public] STRANGE Ospreya says, "This is kinda off topic - but being a soldier isn't really all of that respected anymore. Nobles won't patron you, and you don't really get any SP boost from going to war or anything. It might be in Theme for it to be, but there is little support from what I can see."
[Public] STRANGE Ospreya says, "Instead of being the best they can be as soldiers and warriors, they are forced to neglect trading and take up a craft or farming to put food on the table."
[Public] Steph says, "You do get social point boosts from going to war."
[Public] Suphi says, "people listen to soldiers, though Captain and above. Those below are like RL .. flunkies."
[Public] STRANGE Ospreya says, "uh, training. Do you? I may just be ignorant on this, but isn't only like 15k social points for fighting at war season?"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "As for the sponsorship issue, that's mostly because nobles are looking to make money. If you're not a trader, you may not even need a sponsor."
[Public] Morena Baccarin as Xamori says, "It depends on who you speak with, rather."
[Public] Suphi says, "sponsors are needed to compete in Pents, and some BRs"
[Public] Suphi says, "which soldiers would be drawn to :P"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Soldiers can compete in pents without sponsors."
[Public] Morena Baccarin as Xamori says, "Unless you're a member of the Republic Military."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber also nods to Adan in reply. My understanding is that Republic doesn't sent recruiters to clan lands; instead the clan brass decides 'we're going to send X unit to the front.'
[Public] Anteros says, "Kinda like the UN?"
[Public] Morena Baccarin as Xamori says, "And it's only Festival Pents, Suphi."
[Public] Steph says, "Whores sometimes have "specials" for soldiers."
[Public] Suphi says, "oh, my error then. Thanks for clarifying that Xams"
[Public] Orfi says, "that only appeals to mostly the male soldiers"
[Public] Anteros thinks Re: Soldiers too, you can eat at the barracks, live there, etc. You don't have to have a trade as a soldier to feed yourself or house yourself.
[Public] Farkarmor nods with Anteros
[Public] Rinzik says, "Not to get sidelined, or anything, but. I thought that we didn't get the SP boosts any more. That it was discontinued a few years ago? I don't recall getting one."
[Public] Steph eeps as Adam drags her off. Thanks for this, and especially to Amber for doing it!
[Public] Do Not Upset Mr. Bigglesworth Ronti says, "Night Steph! Night Adam!"
[Public] Dalinuel says, "Yes! Thank you all!"
[Public] STRANGE Ospreya says, "Haha. Night. ;)"
[Public] Steeler Fan, Dar waves g'night to Adam and Steph and the rest of everybody. "Was informing, considering some of that I haven't read up on."
[Public] Rinzik says, "Tyrant! And, yes -- definitely thank you. I think this is wonderful."
[Public] Les Miserables' Javert as Firuell hugs Steph and Adam, "Night!"
[Public] Yasha says, "Night STeph and Adam"
[Public] Once was lost, now was Kerasha says, "Nitnite Steph, Adam."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "The SP boosts should happen. There's no reason the people who go to war wouldn't get prestige in the eyes of the public for going."
[Public] Farkarmor says, "Nights"
[Public] STRANGE Ospreya says, "But why have the SP boosts scaled back so much?"
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "I don't think they /have/ been scaled back."
[Public] Prima says, "I don't remember them from last couple of war seasons tho."
[Public] Rinzik says, "I don't remember even getting one, but I will confess that I could've missed it somewhere."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "Unless someone gets me some sort of numbers, I can't really comment on this at all."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "As it is, all I can tell you is soldiers should be getting SP boosts for serving at war. I don't know what has been awarded for it recently, as usually that falls within the responsibility of whoever was running the war."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "So unless someone manages to find out what was awarded (or not awarded) for the last few war seasons, I can't really comment or determine there's something that needs to be fixing. I can guarantee we'll keep an eye on it this war season, though."
[Public] FERRET STAMPEDE Amber says, "That said, I'm calling an end to this tonight. Thanks for participating, people, and if you have any suggestions for future topics, please @mail me."